From the time I was in my young teens, to the time I was in my early twenties, I had numerous experiences that have led me to believe that there is a higher power out there, and that it wanted me to do great things in life. During this time I was told by half a dozen perfect strangers that I would have great power, and would successfully attain prominent leadership positions. Half of these people were in the Church, and the other half were not. The half that weren’t from the Church emphasized the prestige and wealth it would bring me, the half that were from it emphasized the opportunity to serve and help others.
My Patriarchal Blessing was one of the sources that spoke of these things. It mentioned that I was supposed to be a healer, a leader, a uniter, and a peacemaker. This was the last of the messages I received from strangers regarding my future, and it, along with multiple dreams that foretold the future and a couple of mind-blowing miracles, happened during the year I turned 20. For the three years prior to this year, I went completely inactive from church. I started drinking, smoking pot and cigarettes, and even experimented with other drugs. It was towards the end of this period of my life that I experienced epiphanies that felt like pillars of light descending upon me, imparting new understandings of things I’d been taught in my youth. These experiences culminated around the end of the year 1999, and caused me to start the next year as a new person. I quit the substances, and started reading the Book of Mormon every chance I got, and even started double dipping by attending my home Ward, followed by the services of the next closest Ward, every Sunday.
When I began attending the neighboring Ward, I encountered a young man named Steve. Having both grown up in the church on Long Island, we knew each other since we were children. We weren’t close growing up, but certainly recognized each other immediately when we ran into each other after the services. Steve seemed especially excited to see me, and quickly told me that he’d had a dream a few months back that I was in, where I had these two bodies of water, one dirty, and one clean. I was explaining the atonement to him as I proceeded to pass the dirty one through the clean one, making them both clean. Given my recent spiritual reawakening and having begun to have dreams that foretold the future, I knew that Steve and I had many exciting experiences ahead of us.
I soon learned that Steve had had been disfellowshipped because of interactions between him and a High Priest/Temple Worker. This was very difficult for him, because of his passion for the gospel and strong spirituality, but he was prepared to accept the disciplinary action taken by the Stake leadership. There was something about the way things were handled though, that did not sit well with Steve and me. The fact remained that the other individual involved in the transgression, although just as guilty, (most likely due to his high status in the church) did not face a similar fate to the one Steve encountered. One Sunday we were discussing the situation, and I suddenly got the most overwhelming urge for us to fly to UT the following weekend, and find a General Authority to explain our dilemma to. The problem was, neither of us had any money, which would make accomplishing this task rather difficult. I determined that if my father would front us the money needed for the trip, that it was meant to be. After all, my dad was not the kind of person who frivolously threw around money, but he was spiritual. If the Lord really was inspiring this journey, then I knew my dad would feel compelled as well. Sure enough, he agreed to fund the trip, as long as we promised to pay him back. We happily agreed, and the following Friday we were on our way.
To set the scene, let me describe Steve’s appearance on the day we left for UT. Steve, like me, is a large fellow who stands out in a crowd just by being there. To compound this, he was wearing a baseball cap with the letters CTR, large and bold, plastered across the front of it. He also had a fake missionary badge clipped to his T-shirt pocket, and the biggest old-school camera I’d seen in a long time, hanging around his neck. We were sitting in an airport in Philadelphia, waiting out a layover, when Steve’s appearance prompted a woman sitting across from us to ask, “so I take it you guys are LDS?” Of course, we confirmed that we were, and we proceeded to tell her about our reason for the trip and our goal to find a General Authority. She then informed us that her Uncle is Vaughn J. Featherstone. Now for anyone who hadn’t gone through their teens in the church in the 90’s, Elder Featherstone was probably the most well known member of the Quorum of the Seventy for us, because of how often his talks were specifically geared towards us, and the common trials that we faced as youth. Looking back, we could have gotten his niece’s info, headed back to NY, and accomplished everything we set out to do by getting in touch with Featherstone through her. Instead, we were determined that we were going to some how receive council with an actual apostle, if not the Prophet himself. We saw this encounter merely as a sign that we were on the right track, and continued on our way.
Shortly after we arrived in UT and got settled in at my old friend, Chris’s place, we made our way over to the Church administration building. Upon entering, we encountered a security guard at a desk, and an elevator which appeared to be the only way of getting to any other part of the building from the main entrance. With a confused look, he asked if he could help us. We explained that we were there to meet with a General Authority. After learning that we were there without an appointment, he informed us that it was impossible for us to meet with GA’s without one, and that we really should have just gone to our local leadership. We then proceed to explain the problem with that suggestion, given the issues we had. He seemed to feel sympathy for our situation, because he decided to give us the General Secretary's phone number, but with the warning that she would probably tell us the same thing and our trip likely would have been for nothing. We thanked him, and as we turned to leave, the elevator doors opened and out walked Elder Featherstone. Smiling, he walked right up to us and shook our hands as we excitedly informed him that we needed to speak to him. He politely told us that he was late for a meeting, but if we made an appointment with his secretary, he would gladly talk to us. Glowing with a renewed sense of purpose, we giddily discussed the recent chain of events as we wandered around SLC for the rest of the day.
The following day, we tried to set up an appointment to meet with Elder Featherstone, but like the security guard guessed, the secretary refused to set one up. Days ticked by, and no amount of hanging around Temple Square brought us any closer to our goal of speaking to a GA. With only a couple of days left to our week and a half long trip, we finally decided to randomly call people with the same last name as Featherstone’s niece in the SLC phonebook. After a few wrong numbers, we finally got a hold of her and told her about our encounter with her uncle. She was amazed that, out of all the GA’s we could have encountered, it happened to be Uncle Vaughn. This was even more surprising to her, because last she heard, he was away on church business. It turns out Elder Featherstone had been out of state on Church business until about the time we ourselves had arrived, and was going to be leaving UT again around the same time we were. The only member of their family who knew that he’d returned was his wife, since he was only going to be in UT for a week and a half. After we spoke to his niece, she arranged for a phone call with her Uncle. The next day, Steve got to speak with Elder Featherstone for about 10 minutes, which allowed him to explain what happened and how the situation was handled by our Stake. He offered Steve some advice, and thanked him for informing him of the situation.
The rest of the trip was dotted with a few other interesting experiences. The movie “God’s Army” came out that year, and was still in theaters by the time we got to UT. This was big even for local Mormons, because it was the first LDS movie to come out in theaters. For us, our recent spiritual experiences just made the movie all the more exciting. While I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, Steve was so excited by it, that he couldn’t stop talking about it. This continued to be the case as we drove down to Mapleton to see Chris’s mom, Debbie. When we got there, Steve, as you would expect, began telling Debbie all about it. After Steve had finally finished raving about the film, she replied, “You know that guy, Richard Dutcher... the one who wrote, directed, produced, and starred in that movie? Well, he lives next door.” Totally floored by our continued good fortune, we trekked on over to Richard Dutcher’s house to thank him for making such an excellent movie. Steve, as expected, began to gush a bit. Overwhelmed by the reaction we had to his movie, Richard thanked us for the positive feedback, and I corralled Steve back over to Debbie’s house.
On the flight home, the flight attendant noticed how cramped we were in our coach seats, so he offered to have us move up to first class. After we explained we didn’t have any extra money, he smiled and said it was fine. So, as the icing on the cake, we got to finish our trip eating filet mignon and barely able to reach the seats in front of us with our outstretched feet.
Not very long after our return to the Island, we learned that we’d soon be having a Regional Conference. Many members were speculating that it would be held up in White Plains, the place were the last one (and only other one I’d ever been to) happened. Given our recent adventures, Steve and I had a feeling it would be coming to the Island. Sure enough, Elder Eyring and a member of the Seventy were on their way to our Stake Center to hold the conference. When they arrived, the local leaders literally had the red carpets rolled out, with video cameras at the ready. Imagine their shock when the two General Authorities proceeded to speak about the fact that, not only were the leaders not above the other members in the congregation, but could almost be viewed as being bellow them, given the fact that they are meant to serve them. Not to mention the fact that they are held more accountable, given the added responsibilities. Within weeks our Stake was overhauled and completely restructured.
Another equally miraculous experience occurred, earlier this same summer. Our Stake decided to organize a trip to see the pageant that the Church puts on at Hill Cumorah. It was raining as we loaded onto the coach bus that the Stake rented, but we were hopeful that by the time we finished the seven hour journey, the rain would have subsided. As the hours passed, morale began to decline. Not only did the rain continue, but it began to pour harder than I’d ever seen. As the trip progressed, people began to vocalize their worries. Their complaints were not so much about the disappointment that was being felt towards the idea that we’d be missing out on a spiritual experience, but rather concerning the money that would be lost if the pageant was going to be rained out. I couldn’t understand why there was such a widespread lack of faith among my fellow travelers. I had such powerful spiritual experiences that brought me back to church, and having read about the numerous miracles that abound throughout the scriptures, I found it strange that these fellow believers were doubting that God could stop some measly rain.
The rain and complaining persisted, even as we arrived at the hotel where we would stay for the weekend. We had some time before we needed to leave for the pageant, so we dropped our things off at our rooms, and took a quick swim in the hotel’s indoor pool. After our swim, we got showered and dressed, and headed back to the bus. Unfortunately, the rain was still pouring as bad as it had been all day. Once on the bus, I decided to pray for the entire half hour ride to the hill, that not only would the rain stop for the pageant, but that if the Lord would see fit, to have it stop precisely when we got there and to start back up when the show was over. I wanted the others on the bus to witness a true miracle, and see the hand of the Lord working directly in their own lives, in a way that could not be denied or reasoned away. As we pulled into the parking area across the street from the hill, the rain went from a pour to a drizzle. For a few minutes, we discussed the details pertaining to when and where we needed to meet back up, in the event that some of us split up from the group. As soon as this discussion was over and I stepped off the bus, the rain completely stopped. As I witnessed the first part of my prayer coming to pass, I smiled and found my way to the seating area.
We had arrived about an hour early to get good seats, so we got to throw around a frisbee, relax, and chat about the wonderful change in weather. Shortly after sunset the pageant began. A few minutes later, I looked up at the sky and noticed something peculiar. Not only did the rain stop, but there was a opening in the clouds directly above the hill and the audience. The most amazing thing about this opening, was that it was in the shape of a perfect circle. Around the perimeter the rain was still pouring, but in our perfect little circle, we were bone dry. After pointing out the extent of the miracle I had just witnessed to my companions, I returned my attention to the show. For the next twenty minutes or so, I periodically checked to see that the circle was still there, but soon devoted my full attention to the pageant. I was fully immersed in the wonderful production and uplifting spirit, when, as the last few lines were being said, I felt a few drops of rain hit me. Remembering the last part of my prayer, I quickly gathered those around me and headed back to the bus. The moment we stepped on, it began to pour again.
As far as dreams go, there are a few that I’ve had that have come to pass. There was one occasion, although not spiritual, that was interesting nonetheless. At the time, I was working at Taco Bell as the late night drive-thru cashier. One day, I had a dream where I went into work and was told by a manager that we couldn’t make chalupas or nachos, because we were missing a certain ingredient. This disturbed me, since those were my two favorite things to eat from Taco Bell at the time. The following day I went to work, and as soon as I put my head set on, a manager approached me and informed me that we couldn’t make chalupas or nachos, due to the fact that the deep fryer went up in flames that morning.
Of all the dreams that I’ve had, there is one that stands out above all others. It hasn’t come true yet, but it felt as real as any of the dreams that have come true. In this dream, I am standing next to the entrance of a beautiful temple on a hill. As I look out into the surrounding valley, I see a throng of the most radiant, happy people I have ever laid eyes upon. Their numbers stretch farther than I can see, and they are literally glowing in the darkness around them. Suddenly, a beautiful bluish white light begins to appear in the distance. This light continues to grow in intensity, until it completely fills the air around us. It is at this point that I realize this is the moment we’ve all been waiting for. Our Savior has returned!
Whether this dream is meant to come true as well, or is merely a figurative representation of something else, it has added to the conviction I’ve gained through my experiences, that there is a benevolent being out there who has a purpose for us. One could argue that the connections to the church are merely coincidental, as there are numerous people out there, whether connected to a specific faith or not, who have experienced miracles that are just as real. I completely agree that the LDS faith does not have a monopoly over spiritual experiences. I think that because of the uniqueness of the church’s doctrine, many members can get carried away into overemphasizing the importance of their faith, while diminishing the faith of others. Although it’s usually not intentional, this mentality can be very harmful to relationships with those who are not LDS.
However, I do believe that the LDS church, like many other faiths, has much to offer people who have a spiritual yearning. Additionally, the idea that we have a real purpose, other than to return to heaven and praise a being forever (especially after such a rigorous earthly experience), speaks to my soul. Why would a perfect being put us through so many trials, just to have us return and do what we could have been doing all along? Of all the churches I’ve learned about, the LDS church’s view on the reason for our existence makes the most sense to me. To return to heaven and become like our creator is a very logical outcome. Biblically, Jesus informs us that we have the potential to be joint heirs with him. To think that this implies anything less, is just strange to me.
Is it possible that our imperfect leaders, past or present, have intentionally or unintentionally introduced flaws or false extrapolations from the basic truths of the gospel? This may very well be the case, and to question a leader’s decision to say or do something is perfectly justifiable. We must always seek out truth and understanding, and not be afraid of the discomfort that this practice can often bring. If we are prayerful in seeking an understanding, I believe that truth can be revealed to us, whether it supports another’s words or actions, or tears them down. Answers might not always be in the way or in accordance with the schedule we’d like, but if we focus our daily thoughts and actions towards love and understanding, our eternal futures will be filled with happiness and blessings beyond our greatest imagination. We must strive to treat other with love and respect, and to behave in a way that reflects a true spiritual yearning, not because of some potential reward for doing so, but because we truly love all humankind and desire to see happiness in those around us.
After going through what I did in my late teens and early twenties, and having developed a compassion and love for my fellow man, I have decided to dedicate my life to serving others. I have committed to attending law school, so that I may prepare to the best of my ability for a career in politics. Whether or not I achieve the levels of success that the individuals from my past have foretold, I will do my best to help as many people to the greatest extent that I am capable of. Knowing what is in my heart, and having developed skills that are necessary for success in leadership and politics, I feel compelled to pursue this path. This is an especially overwhelming urge, given the levels of corruption that permeate our government. All too often power attracts individuals who desire to rule over others and take advantage of them to fulfill their own selfish desires. I just hope that more people who share my motivation pursue these careers as well, and that it’s not too late to try and steer this nation in a better direction. It is important that leaders posses a moral sense of responsibility, without feeling compelled to impose those morals on others. It is one thing to counsel others and try to lead by example, and another thing to force morality on them, no matter how beneficial the associated behaviors may be.
I know that my path will continue to be filled with obstacles, and that it is very possible that many of the people whom I’ve loved and trusted will abandon me, and maybe even turn against me. I am confident though, that If I continue to seek out truth and devote my life to the service of others, nothing will prevent me from accomplishing what I was put on the Earth to do, and nothing will destroy the peace and happiness gained from living such a life.
Sunday, October 31, 2010
Sunday, October 17, 2010
A Productive Conversation with a Conservative
Today
10:14Jose
Hi, Erik.
10:14Me
hey
10:14Jose
How's your trip going?
10:15Me
good so far, I wanna get to the beach soon =)
sorry about my friend, he can be a little confrontational when it comes to economics and politics
10:15Jose
I can see that
10:15Me
he's a good guy though
10:16Jose
I'm sure he means well
10:16Me
yeah
so what are you up to?
10:17Jose
I try really hard to take people at their word and give the benefit of the doubt. It really helps avoid confrontation. Oh, you, know, at work. I haven't really been swimming all summer.
10:18Me
I think that is what is most important. Regardless of differences, people need to try and understand where others are coming from and respect their positions
10:20Me
That is what gets me about people like Beck and Limbaugh, their goals are to help drive the wedge further between the different sides
10:21Me
Or at least that is the result of bashing the opposition as much as they do.
10:23Jose
the funny thing is, it was really conservative commentators that drew me further towards more consistency - as I thought more and more about issues I became more principled - eventually it lead me to see the particular flaws with the republican and conservative movement. I became more of a purist than Limbaugh himself. It led me to adopt some views that are not considered conservative at all...
such as being very open to migrant workers and being anti-war
10:23Me
and to not view corporations as perfect entities that are a natural part of the free market
10:24Jose
true. That's one of the tenets of Limbaugh's gospel.
He doesn't see the flaw in confusing defense of free-market capitalism with defending corporate players in the market.
10:26Me
But that fact is what bothers me the most when it comes to "free-market" economics. If there is an entity in the system that is given special treatment, it can grow so big and powerful that the power it wields can sometimes do a significant amount of harm to other economic players.
10:27Me
And since these entities exist, I have a hard time seeing that they should be allowed to act with out some kind of system to keep them in check.
10:29Me
I certainly understand your apprehension, given the history, but maybe the problem wasn't government involvement, but how it was involved.
10:29Jose
That's exactly what I mean by the Problem of Economic Calculation
The "how?" is the big question.
Those of the "Austrian" school of economics feel it's theoretically impossible to get it right.
I got a phone call. We can talk more later if you're still around.
10:31Me
It is a huge question, but one that needs to be constantly sought after. It is like any challenging problem. Just because an answer hasn't been found, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
ok
10:42Jose
Hey, still there?
10:46Me
yeah
10:46Jose
ok, cool, you bring up a very interesting question - which problems can be abandoned. Have you ever heard of Fermat's last theorem?
10:46Me
no
10:48Jose
Ok, it's a problem from the world of mathematics which I can use as an example. Fermat was a great math guy - in his notes when he died he left a theorem about numbers behind - he said that he could prove that there was no possible solution to a certain set of problems (it doesn't really matter what the problem is, but just for your interest, it's solving an equation of the form: a^n + b^n = c^n, for any integer values of n greater than 3)
10:49Me
ok
10:50Jose
It was a great challenge of math to find the proof (since he didn't actually leave that in his notes) and someone actually proved it recently. So, in other words, there are certain types of problems known to math and science that are not just challenging, but can actually be proven to have no solution. The Problem of Economic Calculation is one of them, and I can help you understand why it's said to be so, if you're interested in understanding the theory behind that statement.
10:51Me
sure
I think the problem with asking a question is that people want a perfect answer
10:53Me
The problem when dealing with humans is that perfection isn't possible.
10:54Jose
To the question of economics, i.e., "who should produce what and who should consume what to make things as good as they can possibly be?" I don't think we can reach perfection as mere mortals.
10:54Me
exactly
10:54Jose
However...
The Austrian school point of view is that government intervention is always worse than the free market.
That's a bold claim.
It should be backed up by some sound theory.
10:55Me
it certainly is
10:55Jose
Ok, it should start with the question of: what are we actually trying to figure out?
10:56Me
and don't forget the question of: what do we mean by better?
10:56Jose
exactly
that's a key question.
10:57Me
that question is where our differing opinions hinge.
10:57Jose
Let's agree that one situation can be universally considered better than another if everyone feels better with the one situation than with the another.
10:58Me
ok
10:58Jose
Isn't unanimity a fair measure? I hope so.
10:58Me
sounds good to me
10:59Jose
Cool. Now, isn't it true that people have different opinions about what has value? I may love my stamp collection - you may assign it an actually negative value if it's nothing more than clutter to you.
10:59Me
true
11:00Jose
So, for example, if an exchange were proposed where you get rid of your junk stamps, and I take them and add them to my collection, couldn't we say that there is a net increase in happiness in our society? Two people have become happier than they were before. Who could argue with us?
11:00Me
ok
11:02Jose
So each person is the only one who can assign an ordering of preferences for himself, and those orderings can be very different - it's why economics doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. There are many win-win scenarios.
...coming to a point soon, don't worry
11:02Me
=)
11:03Jose
So, here's the consequence of all I've laid out so far -
11:04Jose
How can the very clever social/economic planners we are dreaming of set up a situation where they can encourage or block certain economic transactions that will make one situation that is better than another?
Forget for a moment whether it's morally right or wrong for a planner to help decide how we spend our money...
I'm not talking about that - I'm just talking about whether it's feasible or not.
11:05Me
ok
11:05Jose
So let's imagine a new scenario...
The Planner sees a potential economic transaction - an exchange between two people that he wants to facilitate...
If he merely points it out and then the two parties recognize the benefit - that's not forcing anything on them, right?
11:06Me
right
11:07Jose
But what if he forces them to do it? By definition, if he has to force them, then he is taking action to rearrange the preference-ordering that one or both of them assign to certain things.
11:08Me
true
11:08Jose
Therefore, by definition of our situation, one or both of these people is less happy then he was before, according to his own personal standards.
And the above also? I recognize that it might be seen to "justify the means" as it were.
11:09Me
The reality is you can't make everyone happy.
11:09Jose
Correct. but here is a major point - there is no way to measure an amount of happiness...
11:10Me
But for me I can't get over the fact that people are allowed to attain so much power that they can eliminate opportunity for others
11:11Jose
In other words, if you see one person's happiness decreases by "x" amount but the other person's increases by "more than x".. that can be seen as a net win, even though it technically violated the first person's private property rights, which are not necessary for this discussion- that would be apriori rejection of social planning
I'm not "starting with what I want to prove" so social planning is still on the table so far.
11:11Me
ok
11:12Jose
However... there really is no way to measure quantities of happiness. What are the units? you can't even say that you like one thing "twice as much" as another.
Twice as much of what?
It doesn't make sense.
11:12Me
this is true
11:12Jose
And now I see that you're saying that there could be a consequence of this that you don't like...
power eliminating opportunity
11:13Me
exactly
when someone has gain so much power and wealth to the point that they could never spend all the money they have, there is something wrong
gained*
It is this greed that removes opportunity.
11:15Me
granted, since I am having such a hard time finding work in my field I could try to produce things on my own and sell them, but I have limited resources, and a family that needs production now.
11:15Jose
I hear you, I definitely understand that
11:15Me
There is always opportunity in theory, but is it practical?
Is having the cheaper product really worth the loss of opportunity?
11:16Jose
I hear you saying that you agree my model world with just a couple of people in it, but when society is larger, does the theory still hold?
11:16Me
for the CEO yes
right
that is my problem with most free market examples. They occur in a vacuum
11:18Me
If some of someones net gains can be rerouted in a way that doesn't significantly impact their lifestyle, but can greatly impact a whole group of people's, I have a hard time seeing that as a bad thing
as we live in society, we agree that we need to make sacrifices to allow for peace and prosperity to exist
that is where laws and taxation come in
11:19Jose
Here is one area where we see apparent problems with the free-market, that are actually the result of government manipulation markets that's already happening...
11:19Me
I think the view for most Conservatives is that any redistribution of wealth automatically leads to the gulag
11:20Jose
If you mean "instantly" then, no
11:20Me
no
I mean inevitably
Road to Serfdom makes that point
11:21Jose
Right.
Here's a problem with solving government involvement with more government involvement...
it has everything to do with my analogy about the ring of power
11:21Me
ok
11:22Jose
You may have just cause for government to get involved and solve a real problem - it might even be an approximate solution that is a lot like what the market would do, only gradual and not shaking things up.
the problem is that government power does not go away.
11:22Me
That is where the solution lies
11:23Jose
The gulags were a result of soviet power, redirected at people it was never intended to harm
11:23Me
changing government so that it can't get stuck
11:23Jose
The Constitution was supposed to be that.
Rules about what rules government could crate.
11:23Me
electoral reform, and maybe some kind of rotating citizen watchforce
11:23Jose
*create
11:24Me
right, but it needs to be updated again
it is a living document
11:24Jose
Suppose we did update it. Who would listen to it?
11:24Me
but this will only happen if the left and right stop bickering and decide on changes we can agree on and make them amend the constitution
if we can enact a citizenry monitoring system, they would be forced to,
11:26Jose
Why would they listen to us?
Guilt? Would growing tyrants feel badly about their usurpations?
I can't picture it.
11:26Me
the only problem is the amount of military power we have let our country achieve might severely impact our ability to make them
Voting
11:26Jose
You're not advocating militas, are you?
*militias
11:27Me
not if there is any other way to accomplish it
it would have to be the absolute last resort, and only as self defense
11:28Me
if people collectively came together and refused to vote politicians back into office until they enacted the amendment and honored it then we might see their tunes change
the problem is most people see their votes as electing the lesser of two evils
maybe this would be futile, but I'd rather die trying than allow things to get progressively worse
11:30Jose
I saw my votes wasted by trying to get conservative power over house, senate and presidency. what did they accomplish? practically nothing.
11:30Me
I want my kids and grandkids to have a better world than I do
it accomplished nothing in the short term, but might accomplish something eventually
I think the problem with most people is that they would rather have it easier than to sacrifice for future generations
11:31Jose
I don't disagree, I just don't really know if I can say I agree either.
11:32Me
That is where protesting and unity need to come into play
we need to realize that we all agree that things are broken, and have intelligent conversations on what basic solutions can satisfy both sides
11:33Jose
I don't really believe government will ever respect any constitution, no matter how clearly we write down the rules.
That's my point of view.
11:33Me
That is why we need to constantly stir up the pot
11:34Jose
Maybe you can't relate (I hope you can't) to the people without shame who seek power.
They're not ashamed to flout your opinions or violate your rights.
It's hard for normal people like us to imagine that.
11:35Me
If politicians see that they really have to work for our votes and are being held accountable for their actions, change might actually happen
the power is what they crave most
11:36Jose
Here's the trouble with that - each politician, while they may not enjoy their stolen power for long - will gradually transfer more power to the government - they may be out of a job, but their elite friends will be in office next
11:36Me
so if compromising on other aspects of their own self interest accomplishes retaining power, then they will be more likely to cooperate.
yeah, that is one huge problem, all the cushy positions they get from the corporations they help out
11:37Jose
Have you seen "food inc"?
11:37Me
no
have you seen "the corporation"?
11:38Jose
The way powerful elites moved back and forth between government regulation agencies and the outside entities that they were supposed to be regulating is ridiculous
11:38Me
If voting them out doesn't work, then we need to have criminal cases
11:38Jose
no, i haven't seen that
11:38Me
oh I agree
11:38Jose
Aha, but the government controls the courts, too.
Separation of powers slows things down, yes.
but the overall trend is for government to support itself and other parts of itself
11:39Me
well, the cases need to be decided by a jury
but the citizens need to initiate the law suits
11:39Jose
Juries are great for defending people against government, but I don't think the reverse is true.
It's easy to get a hung jury
That's works to the advantage of the defense.
11:40Me
because as has been evident recently, impeachment has been off the table
I never said it would be easy, these are just things we need to pursue.
because the plutocracy that exists at the hands of our current "elected" officials and their corporate co-conspirators is what is ruining our nation
Didn't T. Jefferson suggest frequent revolutions?
they don't necessarily have to be violent, but we need to shake things up either way
11:42Jose
he sure did
well, I agree with that
11:44Me
IF we can accomplish something that makes politicians feel like they have to watch what their doing, then I think we are more likely able to create rules that can allow opportunity to thrive to a greater degree
11:45Jose
Let's see if we can agree on at least a couple of things...
11:46Jose
First - even if planners getting involved in the market is contrary to individual property rights sometimes, you could imagine relying on that in practice if it's effective - agree so far?
11:46Me
yes
11:47Jose
Ok, and while we both recognize that it hasn't really been effective so far, I'm saying that I'm certain it can't be, while you still have some hope for that.
11:47Me
right
And I believe that the biggest reason it hasn't been effective is because we haven't been able to put a good enough check on the powers that be
11:49Jose
And I believe the reason it hasn't been effective is that, even though the model I laid out is hard to lay out for larger societies than just a village or clan, that the theory still holds and applies, no matter how large the group.
11:49Me
right
but these are all theories, since neither have been able to be proven
11:50Jose
Well, if you follow the logic of the economic theories I'm talking about, they are really pretty solid.
11:50Me
but the key is, neither can even get close unless we can enact significant change to the power structure
certainly
11:51Jose
yes, change is needed to try these things out.
11:51Me
but the reality of the haves and have nots still remains
11:51Jose
yes, it does
11:52Me
so this is why I think that our most important objective as citizens in this country is to do everything we can to convince each other to act, and then to act
11:52Jose
100% agree
11:52Me
it might take decades
we likely will never see the fruits of our labor, but the cause is still just
11:53Jose
I agree and I'm ok with that, though sometimes sad.
11:53Me
even if it never works, I can't see inaction as an option
it is downright depressing, but a somber reality nonetheless.
11:54Jose
(phone call)
11:54Me
yup
10:14Jose
Hi, Erik.
10:14Me
hey
10:14Jose
How's your trip going?
10:15Me
good so far, I wanna get to the beach soon =)
sorry about my friend, he can be a little confrontational when it comes to economics and politics
10:15Jose
I can see that
10:15Me
he's a good guy though
10:16Jose
I'm sure he means well
10:16Me
yeah
so what are you up to?
10:17Jose
I try really hard to take people at their word and give the benefit of the doubt. It really helps avoid confrontation. Oh, you, know, at work. I haven't really been swimming all summer.
10:18Me
I think that is what is most important. Regardless of differences, people need to try and understand where others are coming from and respect their positions
10:20Me
That is what gets me about people like Beck and Limbaugh, their goals are to help drive the wedge further between the different sides
10:21Me
Or at least that is the result of bashing the opposition as much as they do.
10:23Jose
the funny thing is, it was really conservative commentators that drew me further towards more consistency - as I thought more and more about issues I became more principled - eventually it lead me to see the particular flaws with the republican and conservative movement. I became more of a purist than Limbaugh himself. It led me to adopt some views that are not considered conservative at all...
such as being very open to migrant workers and being anti-war
10:23Me
and to not view corporations as perfect entities that are a natural part of the free market
10:24Jose
true. That's one of the tenets of Limbaugh's gospel.
He doesn't see the flaw in confusing defense of free-market capitalism with defending corporate players in the market.
10:26Me
But that fact is what bothers me the most when it comes to "free-market" economics. If there is an entity in the system that is given special treatment, it can grow so big and powerful that the power it wields can sometimes do a significant amount of harm to other economic players.
10:27Me
And since these entities exist, I have a hard time seeing that they should be allowed to act with out some kind of system to keep them in check.
10:29Me
I certainly understand your apprehension, given the history, but maybe the problem wasn't government involvement, but how it was involved.
10:29Jose
That's exactly what I mean by the Problem of Economic Calculation
The "how?" is the big question.
Those of the "Austrian" school of economics feel it's theoretically impossible to get it right.
I got a phone call. We can talk more later if you're still around.
10:31Me
It is a huge question, but one that needs to be constantly sought after. It is like any challenging problem. Just because an answer hasn't been found, doesn't mean it doesn't exist
ok
10:42Jose
Hey, still there?
10:46Me
yeah
10:46Jose
ok, cool, you bring up a very interesting question - which problems can be abandoned. Have you ever heard of Fermat's last theorem?
10:46Me
no
10:48Jose
Ok, it's a problem from the world of mathematics which I can use as an example. Fermat was a great math guy - in his notes when he died he left a theorem about numbers behind - he said that he could prove that there was no possible solution to a certain set of problems (it doesn't really matter what the problem is, but just for your interest, it's solving an equation of the form: a^n + b^n = c^n, for any integer values of n greater than 3)
10:49Me
ok
10:50Jose
It was a great challenge of math to find the proof (since he didn't actually leave that in his notes) and someone actually proved it recently. So, in other words, there are certain types of problems known to math and science that are not just challenging, but can actually be proven to have no solution. The Problem of Economic Calculation is one of them, and I can help you understand why it's said to be so, if you're interested in understanding the theory behind that statement.
10:51Me
sure
I think the problem with asking a question is that people want a perfect answer
10:53Me
The problem when dealing with humans is that perfection isn't possible.
10:54Jose
To the question of economics, i.e., "who should produce what and who should consume what to make things as good as they can possibly be?" I don't think we can reach perfection as mere mortals.
10:54Me
exactly
10:54Jose
However...
The Austrian school point of view is that government intervention is always worse than the free market.
That's a bold claim.
It should be backed up by some sound theory.
10:55Me
it certainly is
10:55Jose
Ok, it should start with the question of: what are we actually trying to figure out?
10:56Me
and don't forget the question of: what do we mean by better?
10:56Jose
exactly
that's a key question.
10:57Me
that question is where our differing opinions hinge.
10:57Jose
Let's agree that one situation can be universally considered better than another if everyone feels better with the one situation than with the another.
10:58Me
ok
10:58Jose
Isn't unanimity a fair measure? I hope so.
10:58Me
sounds good to me
10:59Jose
Cool. Now, isn't it true that people have different opinions about what has value? I may love my stamp collection - you may assign it an actually negative value if it's nothing more than clutter to you.
10:59Me
true
11:00Jose
So, for example, if an exchange were proposed where you get rid of your junk stamps, and I take them and add them to my collection, couldn't we say that there is a net increase in happiness in our society? Two people have become happier than they were before. Who could argue with us?
11:00Me
ok
11:02Jose
So each person is the only one who can assign an ordering of preferences for himself, and those orderings can be very different - it's why economics doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. There are many win-win scenarios.
...coming to a point soon, don't worry
11:02Me
=)
11:03Jose
So, here's the consequence of all I've laid out so far -
11:04Jose
How can the very clever social/economic planners we are dreaming of set up a situation where they can encourage or block certain economic transactions that will make one situation that is better than another?
Forget for a moment whether it's morally right or wrong for a planner to help decide how we spend our money...
I'm not talking about that - I'm just talking about whether it's feasible or not.
11:05Me
ok
11:05Jose
So let's imagine a new scenario...
The Planner sees a potential economic transaction - an exchange between two people that he wants to facilitate...
If he merely points it out and then the two parties recognize the benefit - that's not forcing anything on them, right?
11:06Me
right
11:07Jose
But what if he forces them to do it? By definition, if he has to force them, then he is taking action to rearrange the preference-ordering that one or both of them assign to certain things.
11:08Me
true
11:08Jose
Therefore, by definition of our situation, one or both of these people is less happy then he was before, according to his own personal standards.
And the above also? I recognize that it might be seen to "justify the means" as it were.
11:09Me
The reality is you can't make everyone happy.
11:09Jose
Correct. but here is a major point - there is no way to measure an amount of happiness...
11:10Me
But for me I can't get over the fact that people are allowed to attain so much power that they can eliminate opportunity for others
11:11Jose
In other words, if you see one person's happiness decreases by "x" amount but the other person's increases by "more than x".. that can be seen as a net win, even though it technically violated the first person's private property rights, which are not necessary for this discussion- that would be apriori rejection of social planning
I'm not "starting with what I want to prove" so social planning is still on the table so far.
11:11Me
ok
11:12Jose
However... there really is no way to measure quantities of happiness. What are the units? you can't even say that you like one thing "twice as much" as another.
Twice as much of what?
It doesn't make sense.
11:12Me
this is true
11:12Jose
And now I see that you're saying that there could be a consequence of this that you don't like...
power eliminating opportunity
11:13Me
exactly
when someone has gain so much power and wealth to the point that they could never spend all the money they have, there is something wrong
gained*
It is this greed that removes opportunity.
11:15Me
granted, since I am having such a hard time finding work in my field I could try to produce things on my own and sell them, but I have limited resources, and a family that needs production now.
11:15Jose
I hear you, I definitely understand that
11:15Me
There is always opportunity in theory, but is it practical?
Is having the cheaper product really worth the loss of opportunity?
11:16Jose
I hear you saying that you agree my model world with just a couple of people in it, but when society is larger, does the theory still hold?
11:16Me
for the CEO yes
right
that is my problem with most free market examples. They occur in a vacuum
11:18Me
If some of someones net gains can be rerouted in a way that doesn't significantly impact their lifestyle, but can greatly impact a whole group of people's, I have a hard time seeing that as a bad thing
as we live in society, we agree that we need to make sacrifices to allow for peace and prosperity to exist
that is where laws and taxation come in
11:19Jose
Here is one area where we see apparent problems with the free-market, that are actually the result of government manipulation markets that's already happening...
11:19Me
I think the view for most Conservatives is that any redistribution of wealth automatically leads to the gulag
11:20Jose
If you mean "instantly" then, no
11:20Me
no
I mean inevitably
Road to Serfdom makes that point
11:21Jose
Right.
Here's a problem with solving government involvement with more government involvement...
it has everything to do with my analogy about the ring of power
11:21Me
ok
11:22Jose
You may have just cause for government to get involved and solve a real problem - it might even be an approximate solution that is a lot like what the market would do, only gradual and not shaking things up.
the problem is that government power does not go away.
11:22Me
That is where the solution lies
11:23Jose
The gulags were a result of soviet power, redirected at people it was never intended to harm
11:23Me
changing government so that it can't get stuck
11:23Jose
The Constitution was supposed to be that.
Rules about what rules government could crate.
11:23Me
electoral reform, and maybe some kind of rotating citizen watchforce
11:23Jose
*create
11:24Me
right, but it needs to be updated again
it is a living document
11:24Jose
Suppose we did update it. Who would listen to it?
11:24Me
but this will only happen if the left and right stop bickering and decide on changes we can agree on and make them amend the constitution
if we can enact a citizenry monitoring system, they would be forced to,
11:26Jose
Why would they listen to us?
Guilt? Would growing tyrants feel badly about their usurpations?
I can't picture it.
11:26Me
the only problem is the amount of military power we have let our country achieve might severely impact our ability to make them
Voting
11:26Jose
You're not advocating militas, are you?
*militias
11:27Me
not if there is any other way to accomplish it
it would have to be the absolute last resort, and only as self defense
11:28Me
if people collectively came together and refused to vote politicians back into office until they enacted the amendment and honored it then we might see their tunes change
the problem is most people see their votes as electing the lesser of two evils
maybe this would be futile, but I'd rather die trying than allow things to get progressively worse
11:30Jose
I saw my votes wasted by trying to get conservative power over house, senate and presidency. what did they accomplish? practically nothing.
11:30Me
I want my kids and grandkids to have a better world than I do
it accomplished nothing in the short term, but might accomplish something eventually
I think the problem with most people is that they would rather have it easier than to sacrifice for future generations
11:31Jose
I don't disagree, I just don't really know if I can say I agree either.
11:32Me
That is where protesting and unity need to come into play
we need to realize that we all agree that things are broken, and have intelligent conversations on what basic solutions can satisfy both sides
11:33Jose
I don't really believe government will ever respect any constitution, no matter how clearly we write down the rules.
That's my point of view.
11:33Me
That is why we need to constantly stir up the pot
11:34Jose
Maybe you can't relate (I hope you can't) to the people without shame who seek power.
They're not ashamed to flout your opinions or violate your rights.
It's hard for normal people like us to imagine that.
11:35Me
If politicians see that they really have to work for our votes and are being held accountable for their actions, change might actually happen
the power is what they crave most
11:36Jose
Here's the trouble with that - each politician, while they may not enjoy their stolen power for long - will gradually transfer more power to the government - they may be out of a job, but their elite friends will be in office next
11:36Me
so if compromising on other aspects of their own self interest accomplishes retaining power, then they will be more likely to cooperate.
yeah, that is one huge problem, all the cushy positions they get from the corporations they help out
11:37Jose
Have you seen "food inc"?
11:37Me
no
have you seen "the corporation"?
11:38Jose
The way powerful elites moved back and forth between government regulation agencies and the outside entities that they were supposed to be regulating is ridiculous
11:38Me
If voting them out doesn't work, then we need to have criminal cases
11:38Jose
no, i haven't seen that
11:38Me
oh I agree
11:38Jose
Aha, but the government controls the courts, too.
Separation of powers slows things down, yes.
but the overall trend is for government to support itself and other parts of itself
11:39Me
well, the cases need to be decided by a jury
but the citizens need to initiate the law suits
11:39Jose
Juries are great for defending people against government, but I don't think the reverse is true.
It's easy to get a hung jury
That's works to the advantage of the defense.
11:40Me
because as has been evident recently, impeachment has been off the table
I never said it would be easy, these are just things we need to pursue.
because the plutocracy that exists at the hands of our current "elected" officials and their corporate co-conspirators is what is ruining our nation
Didn't T. Jefferson suggest frequent revolutions?
they don't necessarily have to be violent, but we need to shake things up either way
11:42Jose
he sure did
well, I agree with that
11:44Me
IF we can accomplish something that makes politicians feel like they have to watch what their doing, then I think we are more likely able to create rules that can allow opportunity to thrive to a greater degree
11:45Jose
Let's see if we can agree on at least a couple of things...
11:46Jose
First - even if planners getting involved in the market is contrary to individual property rights sometimes, you could imagine relying on that in practice if it's effective - agree so far?
11:46Me
yes
11:47Jose
Ok, and while we both recognize that it hasn't really been effective so far, I'm saying that I'm certain it can't be, while you still have some hope for that.
11:47Me
right
And I believe that the biggest reason it hasn't been effective is because we haven't been able to put a good enough check on the powers that be
11:49Jose
And I believe the reason it hasn't been effective is that, even though the model I laid out is hard to lay out for larger societies than just a village or clan, that the theory still holds and applies, no matter how large the group.
11:49Me
right
but these are all theories, since neither have been able to be proven
11:50Jose
Well, if you follow the logic of the economic theories I'm talking about, they are really pretty solid.
11:50Me
but the key is, neither can even get close unless we can enact significant change to the power structure
certainly
11:51Jose
yes, change is needed to try these things out.
11:51Me
but the reality of the haves and have nots still remains
11:51Jose
yes, it does
11:52Me
so this is why I think that our most important objective as citizens in this country is to do everything we can to convince each other to act, and then to act
11:52Jose
100% agree
11:52Me
it might take decades
we likely will never see the fruits of our labor, but the cause is still just
11:53Jose
I agree and I'm ok with that, though sometimes sad.
11:53Me
even if it never works, I can't see inaction as an option
it is downright depressing, but a somber reality nonetheless.
11:54Jose
(phone call)
11:54Me
yup
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